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longtang · 16-11-2007, 06:21

Hi Andy:

EFX's TTO order is, to put it mildly, less than satisfactory and I have never been able to get anyone at EFX to take my gripe seriously. [In fact, I get patronizing comments like: "99% of traders don't have that problem." Well, I guess I am in the 1 percentile of idiot clients, aren't I? Yeah.]

So, I have pretty much given up on trying to tell people at EFX my dissatisfaction with those TTO orders. But, since you have posted on my thread, I will (god help me that I don't pull my hair out) try once again to express just how much of a poor excuse for technology that the TTO order is:

I have tried a live micro mini for two months now. And I can show you my account statement at EFX. It is full of slippage. And it is due to the TTO:

The platform does not offer stop and limit orders. Instead, they have a TTO order. TTO orders are similar to stop and limit orders. So, Say you want a limit at 2.0600, then, when the market gets to 2.0600 , the EFX platform will place a MARKET order to sell at 2.0600. HOWEVER, since this is a MARKET order, you will often get slipped several pips. Out of the 22 trades I had, a majority of them had experienced slippage. [And the slippage is mostly against me! Just bad luck, I guess.].

Sure, you can say: This slippage represents real market conditions. Yes. This is true! However, This is unnecessary slippage. Let me explain why: If you watch their training webinar, they tell you explicitly that to avoid slippage, you should use limit orders to enter and exit the market! YET, on their TTO order, they force you to go with a market order. See, the TTO's are not real orders (ie they don't go on the level II quote book) until the market trades through the TTO price. Then, the TTO order is converted to a Market order. And since it is a market order, it comes at the end of the que for all the other orders already in the books. So, NO, wonder you get slipped with TTO's. [Because, By the time the TTO is converted to Market order, all the liquidity at that particular price has dried up.]

If they would just allow TTO orders to be true limit orders (that actually go into the level II order book at the time it is placed), then they could easily eliminate a huge portion of the slippage!

I hope you understand this point that I am making. Justtin understands this point, but he gave me the explanation that they hide TTO orders from the order books so that other people would not be able to hunt our stops. That seems pretty flimsy as a reason and I don't buy it. I think the real reason is that they just don't have to platform technology to actually have two orders (both the stop and the limit orders) in the book at the same time (ie they are afraid that if they really placed their limits and stops onto the order book, then there is a chance that both could be hit at the same time.) So, My thoughts are that they should come up with a way to address this issue and make TTO's true limits and stops that actually show up on the books! I mean, seriously: the reason I would go with an ECN is because I want to avoid slippage! Yet, I am getting slipped just about every trade! I really do hope EFX fixes this blemish.

cheers.

16-11-2007, 06:21	#3
longtang level 1 Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 9 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0 Rep Power: 0	Re: Looking for a good IB Hi Andy: EFX's TTO order is, to put it mildly, less than satisfactory and I have never been able to get anyone at EFX to take my gripe seriously. [In fact, I get patronizing comments like: "99% of traders don't have that problem." Well, I guess I am in the 1 percentile of idiot clients, aren't I? Yeah.] So, I have pretty much given up on trying to tell people at EFX my dissatisfaction with those TTO orders. But, since you have posted on my thread, I will (god help me that I don't pull my hair out) try once again to express just how much of a poor excuse for technology that the TTO order is: I have tried a live micro mini for two months now. And I can show you my account statement at EFX. It is full of slippage. And it is due to the TTO: The platform does not offer stop and limit orders. Instead, they have a TTO order. TTO orders are similar to stop and limit orders. So, Say you want a limit at 2.0600, then, when the market gets to 2.0600 , the EFX platform will place a MARKET order to sell at 2.0600. HOWEVER, since this is a MARKET order, you will often get slipped several pips. Out of the 22 trades I had, a majority of them had experienced slippage. [And the slippage is mostly against me! Just bad luck, I guess.]. Sure, you can say: This slippage represents real market conditions. Yes. This is true! However, This is unnecessary slippage. Let me explain why: If you watch their training webinar, they tell you explicitly that to avoid slippage, you should use limit orders to enter and exit the market! YET, on their TTO order, they force you to go with a market order. See, the TTO's are not real orders (ie they don't go on the level II quote book) until the market trades through the TTO price. Then, the TTO order is converted to a Market order. And since it is a market order, it comes at the end of the que for all the other orders already in the books. So, NO, wonder you get slipped with TTO's. [Because, By the time the TTO is converted to Market order, all the liquidity at that particular price has dried up.] If they would just allow TTO orders to be true limit orders (that actually go into the level II order book at the time it is placed), then they could easily eliminate a huge portion of the slippage! I hope you understand this point that I am making. Justtin understands this point, but he gave me the explanation that they hide TTO orders from the order books so that other people would not be able to hunt our stops. That seems pretty flimsy as a reason and I don't buy it. I think the real reason is that they just don't have to platform technology to actually have two orders (both the stop and the limit orders) in the book at the same time (ie they are afraid that if they really placed their limits and stops onto the order book, then there is a chance that both could be hit at the same time.) So, My thoughts are that they should come up with a way to address this issue and make TTO's true limits and stops that actually show up on the books! I mean, seriously: the reason I would go with an ECN is because I want to avoid slippage! Yet, I am getting slipped just about every trade! I really do hope EFX fixes this blemish. cheers.