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05-02-04, 12:25 PM
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P.S. Well, you also need discipline and confindence. |
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05-02-04, 01:58 PM
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You could point some 'traders' in the direction of good profitable trades all year round and they would still lose. Don't ask me why, it's something deep in the psyche that they need to address, their opinion of themselves and their past failures have a profound effect on their trading. They need a shrink more than a chart! I tell you, this is a mind game as much as anything! Mick           |
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05-02-04, 02:00 PM
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05-02-04, 02:28 PM
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| I can find thetrends SOMETIMES and I can jump on SOMETIMES (before they're over) BUT I have a hard time knowing when to jump OFF! So do you think talking to a shrink would help me identify when the trend is going to end? Or maybe I should keep studying and learning? |
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05-02-04, 04:23 PM
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 Here goes, a bit of amateur psychology coming up, just lie back and relax on the couch....Why do you exit when the trade is going your way? Are you maybe more frightened of success than you are of failure? Or is success so rare in your life that when it comes along it seems too good to be true and you have to capture it quickly in case it turns to failure? Or maybe you feel you don't deserve success and subconsciously sabotage your own efforts? Are losses such a regular occurrence that you become emotionally overwhelmed when a trade is in profit? Do you expect to lose? Do you expect to win? Do you experience emotional extremes when you win or lose? Do you have self-doubt, wavering confidence, or a lack of commitment? What is your opinion of yourself as a person? Has your life had more failures than successes? etc etc etc There are many more issues to deal with in trading, it's more than just watching charts and predicting a move. Maybe none of the above apply to you, maybe they do. It's a mind game! Mick |
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05-02-04, 06:49 PM
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| Talking from the top of a soap box is what most would be gurus do nowadays. Criticizing destructively is what most would be "mentors" do nowadays. They are all charlatans dressed in nice suits. They all talk but they never walk! And they are all paternalizing like Quote:
Are you successful? What makes you think that you have something new that we don't know about? See why wannabe did not learn from your post? What is there to learn but negative waves? Wannabe presented a complete plan to reach "live from the profits generated by trading fx". The plan was detailed to the point of having to achive "only" 3 pips during the period of 24 hours. Why do you say that achieving 3 pips per trading day is a failure? How many pips do you get per trading day? if you don't mind been asked? What is your "concrete" plan? You have been "wandering" around with dream phylosophy all the time. Shoot the messenger? Are you the messenger from ...? Bursting the bubble? What bubble? You did not prove it to be a bubble! Still, you may have something others can learn from. If you don't want to share, it is okay though. |
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05-02-04, 08:55 PM
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There are stages to trading and I'd be surprised if you've gotten far enough to be considering a shrink to get you past emotional barriers. First do you yet have at least one system with a proven positive expectancy? If you do then ignore the rest of this post. But just in case you don't.... There must be several components before you can call it a system. A Complete Trading System covers the following decisions required for successful trading: �� Markets - What to buy or sell �� Position Sizing - How much to buy or sell �� Entries - When to buy or sell �� Stops - When to get out of a losing position �� Exits - When to get out of a winning position It also must have some form of real time testing and/or back testing that proves it has been historically profitable during a range of market conditions. Some successful traders may argue that my list is not complete enough because it does not include money management. I agree but many traders who have more than one system tend to view money managment from a portfolio perspective instead of individual systems. Therefore they view money managment as separate and distinct from the system. Unless you have a system that covers the above rules and has a positive expectancy you cannot really address the emotional issues of execution because you have no basis for confidence to trade in the first place. Despite the humorous shrink session... I think Mick would agree that going to a shrink before having a real system might be a bit like hiring a carreer planner during the third year of grade school. There may be some benefit but perhaps it's a bit early. DB Last edited by DB; 05-02-04 at 09:06 PM. |
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05-03-04, 12:23 AM
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| Mick I do appreciate the 'tongue in cheek' analysis! Actually one of the best things to help in a while has been to watch the Traderobot do its thing! I have a really hard time not overriding most of its moves! And if I leave it alone it does better than I do! DB I haven't reached the point where I can say yes to all of those even most of the time, but I feel it getting closer and am still confident I can do this successfully (with a little more time and effort). Thanks Guys |
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05-03-04, 01:32 AM
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Or maybe you're just pissed because I didn't tell you what you wanted to hear?. Is this better for you: "Yes wzrd101, that's a great plan, you are going to be rich beyond your wildest dreams". Happy now? That way when you eventually lose your shirt it won't be your fault, you can blame someone else. A couple of quotes for you: Setting a goal is not the main thing. It is deciding how you will go about achieving it and staying with the plan. - Tom Landry People who look for easy money invariably pay for the privilege of proving conclusively that it cannot be found on this earth." - Jesse Livermore Good judgment is usually the result of experience and experience frequently is the result of bad judgment. - Robert Lovell Mick Last edited by MickMason; 05-03-04 at 02:23 AM. |
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05-03-04, 01:53 AM
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The shrink idea wasn't really a serious suggestion but I do agree 100% with what you said. Maybe a glance at one's emotional reaction to losses and gains can help solve the 'getting in too late' and getting out too early' problems that many traders face. I believe the best traders look at things in a very cold, logical, and reasoned way, extreme dissection of everything they do in their trading day. Why exactly am I getting in this trade, and why exactly am I getting out now? Has the market really shown any signs of turning or am I getting scared I may lose some profit? In my opinion analysing what we do is every bit as important as analysing the charts that show us the way. Mick |
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05-03-04, 09:25 AM
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| More paternalizing: Quote:
Wannabe does also the walk. Wannabe presented a plan that he himself follows successfully with discipline. So far, you are the only one tearing it down without putting up a replacement. You haven't "proved" that being able to achieve 3 pips per day profit consistently is not good to reach that goal. You haven't proved its "unfeasibility" arithmetically. You haven't answered any of the questions wannabe posed, such as what success you have achieved to allow you to talk on top of a soapbox, such as how many pips do you get in a normal trading day, such as... So far you have only done the talk! Aiming at a "bunch" of pips per day is very different from aiming at 3 pips per day. Wannabe's 3 pips is a humble, not a greedy goal and therefore "achievable". How to reach 3 pips' goal is more "trading technique" and less "money management". If you are unable to get 3 pips, you don't have the stuff to be a trader. At least not yet. There are other ways to earn money besides trading. Are you afraid that if newbies follow wannabe's "getting 3 pips per day" they will achieve better success than you? Since you haven't presented any plan so far? That plan is free you know, you yourself can use it. This topic is about contribution for TRADING FOR A LIVING! Don't be afraid to present your "better" plan for scrutiny! But do it arithmetically because "money management" is one of the pilars to success. The beauty is that it doesn't even need rocket science. One other thing it also doesn't need is paternalizing. |
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05-03-04, 11:34 AM
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| Originally posted by wzrd101  Ok, whatever. To be perfectly honest I wouldn't know where to start to try and help you, and to be quite frank I'm not sure I really want to. What can I say? Good luck friend, may all your dreams come true. Regards Mick ps I believe the correct forum for discussing trading strategies and plans is that way, this thread is about the feasibility of trading for a living....the clue was in the thread title. Last edited by MickMason; 05-03-04 at 11:41 AM. |
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05-03-04, 12:26 PM
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 Re: wannabe hello wzrd101  you say Quote:
 And it is because he uses 1:30 leverage. It is very aggressive (and of course not recommended for beginners).Ok, if he targets 3 pips then I would say he is scalping - trades on small movements, keeps his position open for few minutes. And I doubt he has 24 hours per day. He needs to sleep, to eat, to rest and spend some time with "his wife, his kids, his pets ..." (and his mother in law, of course  ). So I guess he may have 14 hours per day for trading (on average).You say "100,000x(1+(30/11900x3))^22 = 118,029" ... I would like to know where this formula comes from. However, if wannabe trades EUR/USD the price of 1 pip for him will be $0.0001= 1/10,000, no matter what is the EUR/USD exchange rate. So, the good news is that with 3 pips profit daily wannabe's 100,000 USD account trading with 1:30 leverage will "theoretically" get 100,000 * (1 + 0.0001*3*30)^22 = 121,788 (extra $3500 per month) Quote:
 I would not advise anybody to borrow money for forex trading with 1:30 leverage  Anyhow, the better way to try to get such kind of loan is to trade on free 100,000 demo account and keep all records to show wannabe's profits were 3 pips per day for 3-12 months. That may help. Take care and have fun  P.S. 1 pip is approximately 0.01%, so from 1 billion$ trading lot it comes to 100,000$ |
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05-03-04, 12:40 PM
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| More paternalizing stuff: Quote:
That's right, it is all about the feasibility of trading for a living. What I wrote was that IT WAS FEASIBLE. And I presented a plan to that purpose. Are you not a "Trading for a living" trader? If you are then it is proof that it is feasible! If you are not...well, what can I say to an armchair trader trying to "coach" other traders? You wrote that the plan wasn't feasible but you didn't counter argument with logic, instead you used philosophy. Once in a while, you will find "traders" like me (me a trader? how dare you, snob nobody?) who won't take philosophical sermons lightly, especially in a paternalistic manner! Wannabe may be stupid, but not that stupid! Before replying, wannabe went through the profiles of posters. Being a long time trader, you must have assembled a vast amount of PRACTICAL knowledge, so, when you criticized the "plan", I thought that you would add some juicy stuff. I thought that you would want to contribute not by "scolding" and "preaching a sermon" but by saying: hey, my long time experience tells me that this will not work, but instead this one will and here is why. Maybe you have been trading for so long that you have forgotten the basic improvements that can be achieved by successful trading: Because a trader must overcome, fear, greed, impatience, indiscipline... in order to succeed, a successful trader also becomes a better and superior human been. Maybe this is a better reward than financial achievement. Don't quit tearing down bad plans. Replace them with plans that in your opinion, will work. I contributed with my humble plan. You didn't like it. Contibute with one of yours. Cheers |
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05-03-04, 12:51 PM
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 to wzrd101 Quote:
Borrow $100,000 - trade EUR/USD - profit 3 pips per day - use leverage 1:30 - get approxim. $20,000 monthly (- pay back the interest on your loan, I suppose). Have I missed smth ? I am not sure the money management plan is required at this stage. First thing I would like to see is the "trading plan". If wannabe wishes to disclose his trading plan he may post it to the TradingMethods&Strategies section of our Forum. To be honest, myself do not know how to reach "3 pips daily goal". Myself may think smth about "20 pips per week" goal. It would be: aim at 20 pips profit daily, use stop-loss 20 pips, win 3 days of 5 per week.  (but it is off the topic of this thread, sorry) Take care and have fun |
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