Do you earn 300 pips in 1 month?

[tim_nn]

Originally posted by TheSundanceKid I certainly do "get it", and have no doubt my returns are vastly superior to yours.

I'm glad we cleared that up! Is your Dad bigger than his Dad, too?

[TheSundanceKid]

Originally posted by JanaSergeevna
I think the combination of that nicety, the double negative, the fact that I am using my third language and my desire to raise a smile all conspired to get the better of me. Please excuse me if my comment was inappropriate.

No your comment was not inapporpiate - I just did not know what you meant by it. The double negative I used was the result of trying to say that trading is not easy intellectually, without actually saying that it is hard (intellectually). If I eliminated the double negative, it would read:
"I definitely would say that trading is intellectually hard..." which is not what I was trying to say. I should have rephrased it though.
I am usually always very careful to use proper grammar/spelling in my posts - so I guess I had it coming.
You are fluent in three languages? Impressive!

Originally posted by JanaSergeevna
It is a rather idiosyncratic point of view but for most of the time that I have been learning to trade and trading (and I am still learning now, of course) I have been doing an MBA and a PhD, so I cannot avoid finding it slightly amusing if people express the view that trading is "intellectually difficult".

As I have said numerous time throught the thread, I did not say that trading is intellectually difficult, just that it's not easy, and should not be discounted as a major reason why so many traders fail.
Intelligence is a difficult thing to measure/determine. Nobody wants to believe/admit that they're not smart enough to do something. It's much easier to say that you fail in trading because you lack emotional control or discipline.
Also, just because you are well educated academically does not necessarily mean that you are smart/intelligent.

Originally posted by JanaSergeevna
You misunderstand me, Sir. I am an authority only on shoe shopping. Regarding trading, I can offer only my own experiences and impressions.

LOL, my girlfriend seems to be an authority on that subject as well. I didn't think it was possible for someone to own so many shoes!

Originally posted by JanaSergeevna
IMHO (if indeed it is true) it's because most of them actually lack a system which really works, but often don't realise this, blaming instead a combination of "psychological factors", bad luck and a huge variety of other reasons, repeating their mistakes and risking real money trading "systems" which have no sound, long-term, statistically-proved basis in reality.

Okay, now I'm really confused, because that's exactly what my argument is - yet you seem to want to disagree with me? You must have misread/misinterpreted my argument while you were adding fuel to my flaming.

I totally agree that the reason why most traders fail is because they lack a profitable system. I think this is because it's not easy intellectually to create/develop one, contrary to what many people would have you believe. That is my argument.
People like autofx/comenow seem to think that profitable systems are abound and are very easy to create, it's just that 90% of traders screw up trading their systems because they can't control their emotions, or are not disciplined, etc. They attribute their failure to a whole host of "psychological factors" and other excuses, totally disregarding the possibility that it's the system itself, and the traders inability to create a profitable one (because they are not "smart" enough).
A bad trader can spoil a profitable system, but even a very good trader cannot turn a losing system into a profitable one (provided they stick to the rules/methodology).

It really amazes me how naive people can be sometimes...
(not referring to you, Jana)

P.S. - The generally accepted statistic for the number of traders who fail over a period of a few years (not sure exactly how long) is indeed 90%.

Good Trading,

Sundance

[TheSundanceKid]

Originally posted by tim_nn
I'm glad we cleared that up! Is your Dad bigger than his Dad, too?

LOL, yes that was very childish, sorry.
It's just that his insolent/audacious comment really made me angry. The fact that he would assume that I "don't get" trading because of my opinions on how intelligence is related to/affects trading really incited me.
However, you're right. I should not stoop so low and let such a person get the better of me. When will I learn?...

Good Trading,

Sundance

[TheSundanceKid]

Originally posted by comenow


I am only British so I fail to see the irony. Sundance my dear boy, I am sure your return is 'vastly' better than mine. What do you want? A prize maybe? You are taking this way too seriously. You need to chill out.

Actually, I would prefer a gold star - or perhaps a cookie?

You're right I am taking this too seriously...
Comenow, let's bury the hatchet, ok?
I just wish you would respect other people's opinions/ideas/thoughts, instead of assuming that you know everything about something which you clearly......oh nevermind *holding tounge*.
Truce.

Good Trading,

Sundance

[comenow]

Originally posted by TheSundanceKid


LOL, yes that was very childish, sorry.
It's just that his insolent/audacious comment really made me angry. The fact that he would assume that I "don't get" trading because of my opinions on how intelligence is related to/affects trading really incited me.
However, you're right. I should not stoop so low and let such a person get the better of me. When will I learn?...

Good Trading,

Sundance

Mate, I am not 'such a person'. You started it with your smart arse comments. You need to take it easy. Why in God's name will you get 'angry' at someone on the net. Dear boy, I am not intelligent, nor am I a great trader. In this country, we don't like people who go on about how smart they are: we call them 'smart Alecs' and no one likes a smart Alec. Trading is intellectually no more demanding than losing weight. That may not help your ego but that is the way it is. If you need approval for your brilliance, try and get a job at NASA.

[JanaSergeevna]

I think that we agree about more than we disagree about here, and that some of what we disagree about is semantic (depending on what you mean by "intellectually", probably).

Originally posted by TheSundanceKid You are fluent in three languages?

Not honestly, because one of them is Russian which I hate to speak because to me it will always be "the language of the invader/occupier of my country", so I should perhaps claim only 2, but English remains the third.

Originally posted by TheSundanceKid Nobody wants to believe/admit that they're not smart enough to do something. It's much easier to say that you fail in trading because you lack emotional control or discipline.

This is a very interesting point. I know that you're right, yet it never ceases to surprise me. It seems to me that it somehow "ought" to be less "shameful" to admit to being lacking in the education necessary to do something than to be lacking in emotional control or self discipline. And yet it seems not to be. Without in any way wishing to make any sort of anti-American point or express any sort of anti-American view, I wonder if this is connected with the fact that trading forums are slightly American orientated because the whole of the internet is slightly American orientated, and that something about the nature of American society predisposes towards a great interest in this sort of "psychology" to the extent that these days many people no longer find it embarrassing to admit to being lacking in emotional control or self discipline. I am simply thinking aloud, and of course with no wish to offend anyone. It's just something that surprises me.

Originally posted by TheSundanceKid Also, just because you are well educated academically does not necessarily mean that you are smart/intelligent.

I think perhaps it's a semantic point. Not so easy these days for unintelligent people to get into graduate school, IMHO, and I don't mean just a narrow academic definition of "intelligent". However, perhaps we can agree that no amount of letters after your name will make you streetwise or give you any practical skills for everyday life or more specifically trading successfully?

Originally posted by TheSundanceKid my girlfriend seems to be an authority on that subject as well. I didn't think it was possible for someone to own so many shoes!

Assuming you are not going out with Imelda Marcos (is she still alive?) I commend you on your choice of girlfriend, anyway.

Originally posted by TheSundanceKid You must have misread/misinterpreted my argument while you were adding fuel to my flaming.

Not at all, I was merely trying to pour water on troubled oil.

Originally posted by TheSundanceKid I totally agree that the reason why most traders fail is because they lack a profitable system. I think this is because it's not easy intellectually to create/develop one, contrary to what many people would have you believe. That is my argument.

Ok, I understand you now. You are right that I misunderstood before. It is because we mean different things by "intellectually". I agree that it's not easy to discover or develop a consistently profitable trading system; but I wouldn't call that sort of difficulty an "intellectual" one, that's all.

Originally posted by TheSundanceKid People like autofx/comenow seem to think that profitable systems are abound and are very easy to create, it's just that 90% of traders screw up trading their systems because they can't control their emotions, or are not disciplined, etc. They attribute their failure to a whole host of "psychological factors" and other excuses, totally disregarding the possibility that it's the system itself, and the traders inability to create a profitable one (because they are not "smart" enough).

Speaking for myself, I have not understood Comenow to say that. But I understand that many people express the views you mention here. And many authors. And many course-sellers. And I completely disgaree with all of them. IMHO the problems far more often lie with the system itself, even if we don't quite agree that that's specifically because it's "intellectually difficult" to come up with them. Anyway, we agree on the more general point that it's not so easy to come up with them. And not so easy to test them out when you "discover" one which you didn't come up with yourself. IMHO that is often because of a lack of education and understanding of the realities of statistics, though, and sometimes because of what one might call an "intellectual laziness", which I suppose - just to make it even more semantic - I am differentiating from a lack of "intellect".

Originally posted by TheSundanceKid A bad trader can spoil a profitable system, but even a very good trader cannot turn a losing system into a profitable one (provided they stick to the rules/methodology).

I suppose so. Although one would have to be very bad to spoil something simple and profitable. One would have to be full of one's own beliefs and the desire to "improve" and "adapt" things (i.e. screw them up) and not keep to the rules; one would have to want to "add the parts of something that one likes on to what one already does" or some such nonsense.

Originally posted by TheSundanceKid The generally accepted statistic for the number of traders who fail over a period of a few years (not sure exactly how long) is indeed 90%.

It's too vaguely worded to be accurately debatable, let alone the discussions about how it's measured. But I will let you off this one in case you have better things to do than have a long-winded semantic argument with a pedantic European girl.

[TheSundanceKid]

Originally posted by comenow


Mate, I am not 'such a person'. You started it with your smart arse comments. You need to take it easy. Why in God's name will you get 'angry' at someone on the net. Dear boy, I am not intelligent, nor am I a great trader. In this country, we don't like people who go on about how smart they are: we call them 'smart Alecs' and no one likes a smart Alec. Trading is intellectually no more demanding than losing weight. That may not help your ego but that is the way it is. If you need approval for your brilliance, try and get a job at NASA.

Comenow,

It's not you that made me angry, it was your comments that got to me. On numerous occassions, your replies to me have come off as condescending, disdainful, and disrespectul - not something I take idly, or that I will just sit back and "take".
Then you further insult me by calling me names.
I don't see how I "started it", or provoked any of it - but if you feel that way, then I apologize.
I respect your views, all I ask in return is that you do the same for me...

Good Trading,

Sundance

[comenow]

Originally posted by TheSundanceKid


Comenow,

It's not you that made me angry, it was your comments that got to me. On numerous occassions, your replies to me have come off as condescending, disdainful, and disrespectul - not something I take idly, or that I will just sit back and "take".
Then you further insult me by calling me names.
I don't see how I "started it", or provoked any of it - but if you feel that way, then I apologize.
I respect your views, all I ask in return is that you do the same for me...

Good Trading,

Sundance

My dear man, trading is boring and I write most of this stuff to pass the time while I wait. I neither respect or disrespect your views. I really don't mind them one way or the other. That was why I said a while ago that our discussion was pointless.