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Old 13-09-2006, 06:23   #49
jlpi
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Re: Automated Systems -any hope? :(((

Quote:
I too used to be that aggressive about automated trading, when I started, but the market humbled me.

I am sorry if my message sounded aggressive it was not my intention. I don't want to defend automated trading (I myself never traded automtically these last 2 years), I was just saying that if people follow ACCURATELY a strategy it should be programable.
But maybe the point is just not to follow exactly the strategy....

Quote:
I then understood what was the difference between me and the guy who I was in touch with that had great success on trading pivots. I knew why he wasn't entering trades that I did enter and which turned into losses. I knew why sometimes when the MAs told him it's ok to trade, he didn't trade.

That is a very good example of what I said about not following EXACTLY a strategy. You will not follow your strategy because you "feel" something is wrong. I qualified it as feeling because it seems it is based on "non-quantifiable factors".
(for the example of the doctor, as you say the experimented one is considering more factors, so its not only feeling it's facts. His "book" is only bigger than the book of the young one, and it's strategy of checking the patient is different, so I think it doesn't really fit with the trading case you mentioned)

So, my only point is that in many books (I don't say that the books have to be followed) the master traders say that they follow scrupulously their strategy without any exception because if you don't apply all the time your strategy you will only apply it at bad times.
But you say (and i don't say it's wrong, now I am careful with you!) that an experienced trader doesn't always follow its strategy because of it's experience.

So, what should we do: follow or follow with exceptions?
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Old 13-09-2006, 06:48   #50
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Re: Automated Systems -any hope? :(((

Hi,

The best thing to do is that you go ahead and start coding and testing a robot and if it becomes successful (to operate in all market conditions, ranging, trending, able to handle news), then do share it with us, lol.

I guess, you must have visited Yahoo MetaTrader expert advisor group, you can find lots and lots of them, already coded, try finding the strategies behind and use the one that suits to your need or is similar to your strategy. Then start demoing for farward testing. You would be lucky to find one which would make more than it looses.
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Old 13-09-2006, 07:19   #51
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Re: Automated Systems -any hope? :(((

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpi
That is a very good example of what I said about not following EXACTLY a strategy. You will not follow your strategy because you "feel" something is wrong. I qualified it as feeling because it seems it is based on "non-quantifiable factors".
(for the example of the doctor, as you say the experimented one is considering more factors, so its not only feeling it's facts. His "book" is only bigger than the book of the young one, and it's strategy of checking the patient is different, so I think it doesn't really fit with the trading case you mentioned)

So, my only point is that in many books (I don't say that the books have to be followed) the master traders say that they follow scrupulously their strategy without any exception because if you don't apply all the time your strategy you will only apply it at bad times.
But you say (and i don't say it's wrong, now I am careful with you!) that an experienced trader doesn't always follow its strategy because of it's experience.

So, what should we do: follow or follow with exceptions?

Those are very good questions.
I would describe the exceptions as part of the strategy.
So you actually trade my strategy.
I'll get to it later.

First, let's talk about "feeling" or "intuition". To me, "gut feeling" is nothing more than a decision made in one's sub-conscious, taking into consideration many factors that one is not consciouly aware of. I know that whenever I have a "feeling" of something, that's because my brain has taken into account many factors that are around me, without me noticing them, and processed them into a decision. It applies to everyhing in life. Now, at the time you have that feeling, it's hard to figure out what factors have caused that feeling, so all you have to do is decide if you follow your feeling or not.
If you look back to the time you had that feeling, you will ususally find at least some of the things that can explain why you had that feeling.
Let's go back to trading. Whenever I have a feeling that something is not ok, I try to find what's wrong. Why do I have that feeling? On what facts did my brain base this decision that something is wrong? And I usually find some of these facts.
Our brain is capable of processing lots and lots of information within split seconds without us even knowing it did.
These "feelings", the same as the doctor's, come after a lot of practicing. And as I said, these feelings are actually decisions made by our brain automatically based on factors it received from the environment.

As to trading strategies:
What the books and "masters" don't tell you is when NOT TO TRADE.
They will show you a double top and say "identify a double top, and trade once price breaches....".
They don't tell you that this double top, in order to have more probabilities to be profitable, needs to be around a key level. Maybe they did, but you don't know how to define key levels. So you take any double tops you see. Most of them are not valid. They don't tell you to check what time is it. For me, the time of the trade is very important. I look for opportunities during the first 1-2 hours of the UK or US sessions. That's it! I won't enter trades in other times. They won't tell you to look at how the double top looks like. Zoom in. Is price spikey? Is there a trendline rising just below the lowest point, making this trade dangerous. Are there any important news coming soon that might trigger the entry for nothing?
One of the things they don't focus on is the "large picture". Alsways look at the large picture. Always. This is one of the things that contribute to the "gut feelings". While looking for trade opportunities, your brain has already "sanpshot" the large picture. So if you see a trade coming, your brain will scream "NO!!!". At first you won't know why, but then you will zoom out the chart and see a major resistence level, a major trenline just where you were about to enter.
Another thing is an excessive use of indicators. They will show you MA crosses, RSI divergences etc.etc. You will lose focus on price action and trade according to these indicators. That's fatal! If you trade only on indicators you will lose. You have to focus on price action.

A) What's price doing?
B) Where is it doing is? (previous S/R? fib level? trendline?)
C) What time is it? (you don't wanna take trades during asain session, for example. it's very quiet and lack of liquidity).

I like to trade double tops/bottoms. Here's what I ask myself before entering the trade:
1. Is the formation near a a key level?
2. What time is it? Is it the beginning of a trading session?
3. Is there something "in the way" that might interfere with the pirce reaching it's target? Can I lock in some profits before it gets there?
4. How's price action look like? Is it nice and smooth? (many buyers/sellers) or is it crappy?
5. Are there any news announcements coming out soon? What can they do?
...and more.

These questions are all "exceptions" but they are part of the strategy and are based on the 3 major questions you have to ask yourself when preparing for a trade.

Once you concentrate on these 3 questions, and read and learn about price action, you're on the right track.

Astro
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Old 15-09-2006, 17:33   #52
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Re: Automated Systems -any hope? :(((

From the last posts it turns out that trading is obscure drink made of technicals, fundamentals, subconscious impulses, feelings and big pictures I don't now why but i find this difficult to swallow.
When Barbara Rockefeller analyzes why major Forex multi-million dollar investment funds reported losses for 2005 and 2006 (despite growth in liquidity) she clearly states that many of them (for example) completly ignore fundamentals, or adapt their strategies according to the feedback from their clients or performance for that particular year. With all do respect to Boris Schlossberg and the likes but i still think that SoulTrader is right when he wrote that the market is moved by feelings and that what you need is an edge (i.e strict rules for trading).
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Old 16-09-2006, 11:52   #53
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Re: Automated Systems -any hope? :(((

I'm one of the few who trade fully automated. And have been for some time. I do roughly 0.5% a day, but when the market actually get's going again it will probably settle on 1% again. Draw downs at this point is about 10%

http://www.houseofforex.com/209425/D...dStatement.htm

All I do is MM. Basically I can trade randomly or apply the MM aspect to any "system" and it will make money, the sole provision being that the trades are opened without a stop. They are added later when appropriate.

Most people try to predict forex. That's just impossible. You have to react to it within the parameters dictated by the funds on hand.

Desperate, it took me years to get it. Giving up after one is a bit early. But what you need to do is start eliminating the stuff that doesn't work. Indicators are a good place to start....
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Old 16-09-2006, 12:19   #54
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Re: Automated Systems -any hope? :(((

I want to add that I'm not the only one. Chaffcombe from Oanda does about 400% per annum fully automated.

Automated systems work and are here to stay. And they out trade any human trader by far. On top of that my performance is 100% predictable. I can tell you exactly what my portfolio's will be worth on specific future dates regardless of what the markets are doing right now.

The debate isn't anymore whether these systems exists or are possible. The debate is now what the owners are going to with them. And there I have quite a plan...
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Old 17-09-2006, 05:08   #55
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Re: Automated Systems -any hope? :(((

Dr Zogg.

Can't argue with your results, but I am interested in the 'no stops' method.
"the sole provision being that the trades are opened without a stop. They are added later when appropriate", how do you protect againest that one big loss where the market does not come back? Also I assume 'appropriate' means 'in profit'?
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Old 19-09-2006, 17:24   #56
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Re: Automated Systems -any hope? :(((

Not really Craig,

Appropriate means that I might have just opened a new trade and I'm uncomfortable with the combined exposure of all my trades. I'd be opening a new one for example to get within a more current trading range. One of the options is to put a trailing stop on one or more of the older trades in case the market goes against my overall exposure.

Stop losses at best are a crude attempt at managing risk. And I mean stone age crude. There are much more sophisticated ways of increasing or decreasing risk appropriately using tools like stop losses.

A stop loss is just one tool in managing risk.

I could also open a hedge, or close the problem trade and replace it with a smaller trade, or half hedge etc....it's complex...

The point is that 94% of what amounts to random trades (at least 50% of my trades are hedges) end in profit. My job is to make sure I can afford to have the trades I have open within the volatility and range parameters till I reset my exposure, MM 101....poorly understood and the key to trading. Try reading Von Tharps work...it's a good place to start with this kind of stuff.
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