Facism in Russia is evident

[bobnat]

As an addendum to the above and how we create false dichotomies consider this.

Many Americans were against attacking Iraq before it happened. Once the war began, many of those same Americans say that we must support our troops now that they're actually fighting. To show anything less is condemned as being unpatriotic.

Now think of this. These people were against a war that was a possibility, it didn't exist. Once the war became a reality, they gave their agreement by "supporting the troops". If that isn't absurd reasoning what is? It's based on emotion, not logic. Sure, it sucks wind if your relatives are there, but it doesn't abrogate one's responsibility to think. My sister's only child is being shipped to Iraq in December. Does that mean I now give tacit approval just because I have a relative, friend, someone I know at risk of being maimed/killed? Of course not.

The methods used by governments to obtain support, in all forms, many of them of the unthinking type, are numerous. Creating and supporting false dichotomies is one of them.

Nat

[hoene003]

Originally Posted by bobnat

Now think of this. These people were against a war that was a possibility, it didn't exist. Once the war became a reality, they gave their agreement by "supporting the troops". If that isn't absurd reasoning what is?
Nat

Absolutely Bobnat, they showed all around the world Dokter Phil and his army of housewives. One woman said she was against this war and she was attacked by the crowd, because she didn't support the troops (which exist of 90 procent housewives too).

Americans are followers, they don't have an oppinion and if they have one, they are to scared to express themselves. That's why you are still in Irak for no reason at all. Americans always following the big leader and they worship him just like communists do in North Korea.

[bobnat]

Hoene,

It's not an American condition, it's a human condition.

You would be hard-pressed to find a group of people who at one time or another did not follow blindly some demagogue. Europe had Nazism, Fascism, and hundreds of years of royal oppression. I strongly suspect you're European, and Hoene is certainly Germanic in nature, so you shouldn't be so quick to condemn others. All groups can be dumb at times. Hopefully, they come to their senses and rid themselves of the morons in power. Churchill said, "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." The US may have its faults, but I know from experience that it's better than most places in the world.

But let's not turn this into a bashing your culture, my culture argument. I simply was expressing my opinions on what it means to be a citizen of a country and the responsibility of accepting the good with the bad within that context.

Nat

[initialsBB]

Originally Posted by bobnat

Hoene,

It's not an American condition, it's a human condition.

You would be hard-pressed to find a group of people who at one time or another did not follow blindly some demagogue. Europe had Nazism, Fascism, and hundreds of years of royal oppression. I strongly suspect you're European, and Hoene is certainly Germanic in nature, so you shouldn't be so quick to condemn others. All groups can be dumb at times. Hopefully, they come to their senses and rid themselves of the morons in power. Churchill said, "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." The US may have its faults, but I know from experience that it's better than most places in the world.

But let's not turn this into a bashing your culture, my culture argument. I simply was expressing my opinions on what it means to be a citizen of a country and the responsibility of accepting the good with the bad within that context.

Nat

Dude-get a life. Europe did not have fascism-Germany and Italy did.
The referendum in Moldavia and the issue with Georgia is just an answer from Russia to the western voluntaristic application of the international law. Things will get even more messy if US decides to go to another illegal war.

[hoene003]

Bobnat, you are mentioning fascism but below some characteristics of fascism. Look how amazingly well this fits on the current US.


* Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.


* Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.


* Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.


* Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.


* Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.


* Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.


* Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.


* Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.


* Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.


* Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.


* Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.


*Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

[bobnat]

Hoene,

I wouldn't argue with you about that at all. I agree that the road the US has gone down the last few years is chillingly similar to that of the Weimar Republic's last year.

But I think we're getting away from my point of my posts. And considering this is a forum populated largely by Americans, owned by an American, and that right or wrong, no one wants someone from another country telling them what's wrong with their country, then this is a topic better left for a different forum.

Nat